Crime and Punishment
Most of us learn right and wrong at a pretty early age, and from there it’s mostly just a matter of choice. I may know whether I “should” or “shouldn’t” do something, as dictated by moral standards — whether social, innate, or religious — but it’s still up to me to make a decision on what action to take.
This is no great bit of insight, and I suppose we could debate my flippant wording here or the origin of human morality or what law — lesser or greater — we should be required to adhere to. The point is, the vast majority of the time we aren’t ignorant of the rules and we sometimes choose to break them. If we’re caught, we may be subject to punishment from our peers or those in authority. If we do “get away with it,” we still have to deal with ourselves, whether that means our conscience or eventual moral deterioration, and then aren’t we also held accountable by a higher power?
This is sounding a little serious… Maybe because it is. But as with most things here, my real inspiration is rooted in annoyance, sarcasm, and just a sprinkle of spite. Of course the serious topics go down smoother when mixed that way.
So what about modern crime and punishment? What punishments fit the crimes and what crimes fit some other gruesome, humiliating, or comical form of discipline?
Take this one for example: pizza boxes with wanted posters for deadbeat dads. The Butler County Child Enforcement Agency started using Cincinnati pizza joints to share with the public the faces of those wanted for past-due child support. Is this helpful or harmful? Shameful for the offender, but also possibly shameful for the child who was already left behind by their parent?
Of course the big controversy is the death penalty. How do you feel about that one? Some hold to the Old Testament “eye for an eye” philosophy, while others flip further to the back of the Book and preach forgiveness no matter what the injustice. Some don’t bother backing their thoughts up with religious references and clearly just have a sort of blood lust and say “kill ‘em all,” using capital punishment as an excuse.
And what about sex offenders? It seems to me that the law is way too lenient on convicted rapists and pedophiles. I can’t think of a worse crime. I’m completely in favour of the proposal to give sex offenders special license plates (although I prefer the pink ones). Humility is a good place to start with such people, in my opinion. Making them go door to door themselves to inform neighbors (“Walter, what’s a pederast?”) and use special license plates is completely reasonable to me. As is castration.
And speaking of the worst kind of human garbage, what about poor Paris Hilton? A convicted whore, Paris started serving her reduced sentence this week for repeatedly driving (drunk) on a suspended license. I don’t know about you, but I think drunken vehicular manslaughter by an insanely rich heiress with no talent of her own would be completely different than your usual alcohol-related deaths. When we start holding the rich and slutty up to the same standards as the common man, we completely lose the foundation of society, that backbone that is exclusivity.
I do wanna say one more thing and then I’ll shut up (for now). I think it’s awful how the same crime can be treated completely differently depending on the victim. Certain cases involving the kids of the rich often get massive amounts of media attention and special treatment from the authorities. If a criminal wrongs a particularly influential person, the police give it much more attention. Never mind the very similar and more common crimes committed against lesser victims, we’re going to handle these cases with exception. Oh, and if the victim is a police officer, hold onto your hat. How expedient the process becomes. No offense (okay, maybe some), but who cares who was killed? Do you think the children of a murdered police officer miss their parent more than any other child grieving that same loss? If we’re going to gripe and demand equality when handling crime and punishment, let’s get it all out there and do it across the board.
And one last note regarding conviction and sentencing: all of this is under the assumption that the system is not flawed or that the convicted are 100% guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you add in the complications and inconsistencies inherent in the judicial system, this thread gets even more interesting…
I am tired of hearing about Paris Hilton and jail. I am a firm believer of you do the crime you do the time (we can thank my CJ degree for that) I am still trying to figure out how she was able to get her sentance cut from 45 days to 23 for good behavior without even being in jail yet and after showing up late for court.
And I was SOOO right when I said she would turn herself in abount an hour before midnight because it would count as a day spent.
I just think it’s pathetic they keep quoting her for saying she just wants to do her time and show people she can do it. What? Is this some physical challenge? Boo hoo no blackberry, boo hoo no make up. Whatever! And as for her saying she wants to be set the example for others….well start by obeying laws and start being less of a ho. She thinks because no one was hurt her sentance is unfair? She should try losing someone to a drunk driver or someone who was drugged out then see how fair her sentance is.
ok..I think I am done now
[moved to this thread by Bill]
oh Bill….you just opened a thread I should be banned from. But nonetheless…excellent thread.!!!!!!
A little more on the special treatment of law enforcement officers… It really pisses me off when I see a car that advertises “I’m a cop or somehow related to a cop,” whether through a Fraternal Order of Police decal, or the little metal badge hanging on the license plate, or whatever.
Ok you asked for it.
****** A. Hersman, EMT Certificate Number
Violation: Felony convictions, Rape, a first degree felony, Gross Sexual Imposition, a third-degree
felony and Tampering with Evidence, a third-degree felony
Sanction: Permanent Revocation of certificate to practice and special topic certificate to teach
My best friend was married to a Firefighter…look up the Hersman case if you want more info. She came home one day to literally catch him doing unthinkable things to her 8 year old daughter (his stepdaughter) She of course flew off the handle and went after him. While she knows she was wrong for attacking him it was an instinct she wasn’t able to fight off.
Long story short he only got couple years in prison and his EMT license revoked(see above) and she got 3 years probation for assault. He is up for parole in a year. During the trial they actually brought in people who he had saved their lives. What that has to do with a rape/molestation case is beyond me other than making a jury feel sorry for him. Worse yet he filed papers to have the courts enforce his now ex wife to bring his son(who is only 5) in for visitation. The courts ruled in his favor due to the fact he was at one point a “pillar of the community.
LOL —> inconsistency.
Seriously though, if you’re holding to the bible, isn’t there a whole “Thou shalt not judge” bit that’s rather popular with you people? And before anyone can feel the sting of offense here, this is not meant to be a “Hey look Christians don’t practice what they preach” thing. I actually see value in the idea that no one but god can be the true judge of a person’s actions – meaning he alone decides what punishment a person deserves.
Does this mean we shouldn’t have prisons? No – we still need to keep society safe from people that would do harm. And there’s even value to punishment as a form of correction – to enforce the fact certain behaviours are unacceptable. I can get behind the death penalty too – when it is the best way to keep society safe from those that would do harm to others. However, to start discussing what a person *deserves* is a step too far – it’s not your place.
That may be splitting hairs – I dunno. It may not really make a difference other than the way we view criminals as opposed to the way we treat them.
On a somewhat related topic it enrages me that people who commit crimes against children get a lesser sentance than if they commit them against an adult.
I don’t have the cases with me at work but at home I researched 57 cases in Ohio alone where someone had killed a child and only received a small amount of time. For instance you kill an adult and you get life in prison. Some of the cases I researched people given one year per the age of the child. So in my mind that sends the message that if I am going to kill someone better make it a 1 or 2 year old so I don’t have to do that much time. Do we not value children as much as adults? Who exactly is making these rules? I don’t care if you kill a child or an adult…murder is murder!!! Why do some people get executed(a whole seperate topic to not get me started on) and some people get 15-20 years or life?
I should probably not visit http://www.bill-johnson.com anymore today or I will fill this thread all by myself.
A few inconsistincies here in this post. Mainly the fact that yes it is bad to judge people, and yet we are all still thinking that “this person’s sentence wasn’t stong enough” yada yada. I do have an issue with letting people go and the government issuing “forgiveness” because it’s all sunshine and butterflies. The fact is that some people murder and might possibly do this again. Not only does someone need to pay the penalty for their own actions, but society also needs to make an effort to protect those who havn’t been murdered/violated in some way. This is not something to blame on Christians or even God, it’s just plain common sense.
For the record, I wasn’t saying that criminals should be let go. It’s more of the the whole “This person is bad, they deserve to die” type of thinking. Killing someone so they won’t kill again and killing someone because you decide they deserve death are two different things.
And what was being blamed on the Christians?
Mary, you’re much kinder than I am… Here, let me demonstrate.
Okay, inconsistency is definitely the word of the day. Stinky, your paragraphs don’t begin to go together.
First off, the eye for an eye etc. part there was purely metaphorical, since it’s pretty much used liberally in the secular world too. Hence the words “philosophy” and “religious references.” To attempt to take “don’t be judgmental” and make it “thou shalt not have law and order among a society” is just comical…
So you say men as a society can’t and shouldn’t judge men, and then in the next paragraph you say you support prisons and even the death sentence in some cases. You’re going to have to show your work b/c you skipped a very big step there… If we don’t have a societal judicial system, how do you get from point A to point B? Maybe those who believe in God receive a list from the mount once a week stating who’s been naughty?
I’m trying to decide whether I’m just taking your bait here, b/c while I often don’t agree w/ what you say, it’s not like you to leave such gaping holes…
Umm, I’m gonna go ahead and say that this is not true. Maybe you saw certain cases where, when compared to certain other cases involving the murders of adults, the criminals did get less time. But I would imagine you could’ve also taken those same cases and compared them to other crimes where the victims were children and gotten the same results. Murder trials involve juries, and in most cases, jurors are moved by injustices committed against children. Unless they were brats.
Most murders probably involve some intent beyond “I really want to end a human life, I don’t care who.”
I don’t think people understand justice. All we can do is fume and rage about what seems “fair”, but we make fair mean “what seems right in our own eyes”. A lot of times we may come up with the “right” answer, but right is usually only consistent with the prevailing opinion or the opinion of a large faction in society. And “right” certainly has lost its ability to stand on its own for more than a few decades.
And, as Amy and others mentioned, we can’t even make the same crime come down to the same punishment. So once we’ve decided that your guilty, “guilt” even means more or less how moody or spiteful the judge or jury is that day.
I think it’s incredibly telling that Stinky chose to laugh at the inconsistency of God, who instructed the Jews to hold a strict and unwavering Law and then who forgave them after they’d built a significant history showing that it was an impossible feat to keep such commandments. But God is not being inconsistent, he’s being INCREDIBLY merciful. The Old Testament Law was merciful, because EVERY sin deserves death, and He only instructed the Jews to execute offenders of some of the crimes. But the Law is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to keep without transgression, and in that sense it’s incredibly unmerciful. When Jesus came, He taught that His appearance did not abolish the Law, but fulfill it. His teachings of mercy and forgiveness are in light of an understanding that the Law was strict, yet He preached an even stricter one.
Ever looked at a woman with lust? That’s adultery. Ever called your brother a name? Murder. Ever caused a child to sin? Get tossed in the sea with a millstone tied round your neck.
God isn’t inconsistent, He’s practicing restraint. There are incredible judgments in the Old Testament: Eden, The Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, the 10 Plagues of Egypt. There are also incredible mercies (but they’re not as “cool” so they get overlooked, I guess): The Flood, the return from Babylonian exile, Jonah at Nineveh, the marriage of Hosea.
Christ doesn’t come to change the nature of God, but to further reveal it. Since the Old Testament, our understanding of things has gotten a measure worse and a measure better. In the past, we likely would have understood that some things are bad, some are worse, and it was tough to do the right thing. Now, after Jesus, we see that all things are deserving of death, but in all cases there is opportunity, through Christ’s forgiveness, for eternal mercy. Things will ratchet up to the final notch at the Second Coming, when Life and Death will ultimately, eternally be meted out.
But we can’t understand the latter without the former. We should be less bloodthirsty and more interested in sanctifying, not “correcting”, criminals. We should show more mercy, understanding that God WILL judge us all. But not because our priorities changed, only because we now have the capability to more fully understand them. Our criminal system is doubly harmful: it not only deals poorly with the guilty by unfairly punishing them, it deals poorly with the innocent by showing them a distorted picture of justice.
I probably shouldn’t have posted my thoughts on that until I finished getting all my proof together. I actually sat down with my Professor last night discussing this thread and has some websites he will send me today to support my statement. I am sure you are having trouble containing your excitement :0)
Another thought that hadn’t even crept into my mind until I talked to one of my Cop friends. Do you think public officials such as Sheriff, Police, Firefighters should get harsher punishments when they commit crimes? My friend Justin(a police officer) made the point how when he went through school they shoved right and wrong down their throats all the way from committing murder down to taking bribes. You take oaths to serve and protect. So let’s say a PO murders his wife…should he not be punished more since he has had specific guidelines given to him of what is and is not acceptable behavior?
Don’t kill the messenger…..but it was a good discussion for 7 am this morning
Nope. Equal across the board.
Seth, I’m not sure I can get on board here. I mean, I pretty much agree with the whole middle section of your comment, but I think we may be muddying lines…
As a Christian, I can recognize different definitions in some of the words we’re throwing around. When I saw you use the word “sanctify” the alarms in my head got much louder.
Justice, judgment, fair, deserve, innocent… these terms have very different meanings in a secular context. I can recognize God’s sole ability to bring justice by judging man w/ utter and perfect fairness, deciding and delivering what we deserve, and being the only one who can mark someone truly innocent. And this is a valid and interesting point of discussion, and I encourage those who agree to chime in and those who disagree to argue their view of that aspect. But Seth, you frame your description of perfect justice with realities of flawed, human justice in the worldly, secular realm, and I think it’s important to recognize the differences.
The judicial systems we have here on earth are FUBU, if you will, and very, very far from the perfect nature of God. First off, we are operating on rules made by men. To some degree (often a great one) these rules vary across cultures past and present — inconsistent and dynamic to the times and beliefs of those in that particular legislation, altering sometimes even between cities and counties. Judgment and sentencing is also carried out by men, not God. Again we see inconsistencies as men judge men and our vision of justice waver as we deliver sentence — maybe a very different sentence than delivered previously for a very similar crime.
These inconsistencies can be the result of man’s complete inability to determine ultimate justice or perfectly discern right and wrong, or just his sinful nature. There is much corruption in governments, including their judicial systems, just as there is corruption in any group of people. Often decisions are made for selfish reasons, whether when making laws, judging the accused, or sentencing. All of this is in complete contrast to the unchanging justice — right and wrong w/ capital R’s (get it?) — of God.
But as w/ our other shortcomings, recognizing our inability to perfectly raise and maintain a judicial system — complete with laws, judging, and sentencing — does not give us the right to simply not attempt it. No one here can tell me life would be better as a free-for-all, and I don’t think anyone is saying that (yet). To have order in a society there must be laws, a means of judgment (“she’s a witch!!!”), and sentencing. We can’t take a truth — only God can perfectly judge man — and use it to cancel out the benefits and necessity of a secular judicial system. Criminals will never be “sanctified” through man-made justice, nor should we ever expect them to be. They *should*, in fact, be corrected — despite the knowledge that God will ultimately deal perfect justice — because without that kind of cause and effect in society, evil will completely take over. (Don’t mince words with “evil” there, you know what I’m saying.)
Man, I need to be more careful with my wording – that was meant as more of a joke, as I went on indicate that I clearly do not find inconsistency with imprisoning or killing people while at the same being compassionate and forgiving toward them.
I make a distiction between judgement and pragmatism. Meaning that you make a “judgement” on the actions of a person and act accordingly to 1. keep society safe from that particular person and 2. reinforce to society that certain behaviour is not acceptable. I think the idea translates to something along the lines of “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”
But that doesn’t mean that you get to sit back and say “I’m a better person than this thief or that murderer.” Maybe you are. Probably you are. But possibly if you had been born under far different circumstances you would have made the same unfortunate choices.
I’m not saying there’s no personal responsibility – every action we make is a choice. But those choices are always governed by a host of influences. Everyone has a reason for the things they do. Even when you look at someone’s actions and wonder what they could have possibly been thinking, there was some motivation that set them on their path. Even in the justice system today we try to examine this – we try to see just how responsible a person is for their actions. And how likely they’d be to commit the same action again. How could anyone other than god know for sure how responsible a person truly is?
You may be thinking now, that people who commit crimes in most cases know the law, know the difference between right and wrong, know what will happen if they get caught and choose to do it anyway. But take something simple and harmless – stealing music. I’d be willing to say that most people with a computer do this. It’s against the law, there are penalties for it. It is stealing, which pretty much everyone agrees is wrong. But it’s not that bad. And why should I have to pay for it when the torrent is right there. And the record companies charge so much they sorta deserve it anway. Thinking like that translates surprisingly well as the magnitude of the crime increases.
I *think* the reason people try to judge others – meaning the character of a person – is that it lets them put distance between themselves and sin. They say “Well, maybe I cheat on my taxes or or cheat on my husband, but at least I’ve never killed anyone. Only a really bad person would do something like that.” Most of the time, I think we all think of ourselves as pretty ok people. It’s hard to look at yourself and think that in god’s eyes, you might be just as deserving of the same punishments as those you want to condemn.
And this idea of justice we have – it feels far more like revenge. We want criminals brought to justice. Does this mean stopped? Not really. In a very basic sense we want them to hurt like they made us hurt with whatever they did.
I am going to have to disagree with you Bill. I will get some supporting facts on this for you but there is a website that proves this theory
And not trying to be a jerk about it but I disagree with this too. When you make that decision to become a public person you should know that there are certain examples you need to set. I come from a long running family of police officers and will be one by the years end…and it is drilled into your head right and wrong and what is “societies” version of right and wrong. With these guidelines set for you and you accepting them when accepting your job you should NOT have a lighter sentance just because your a cop or judge or whoever. You by far should know the guidelines because you are specifically taught them. THerefore I believe you should have a more tough punishment.
I will however agree with you bill on the fact that your conviction shouldn’t be based on WHO you kill such as a cop killer or someone who commits a vehicular homicide. I would miss my sister in law who is a nurse just as much as my brother who is a cop.
I agree with what you’re saying, Bill. Every society has their own rules of etiquite and right and wrong. That is how a society helps hold itself together. I don’t really think this has much to do with God as mentioned above. Sure the Ten Commandments used to be hung in courtrooms across the U.S., but most of those commandments seem to make perfect sense – Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc. In order for a society to be able to funtion there has to be boundaries.
It is interesting that America’s “boundaries” are sort getting foggier and foggier. Tolerance seems to be the campaign now a days. I hate the thought of tolerance. People loose their individuality and personal beliefs to adopt such a generic belief of the “world living in peace” something er other. Scripture says “So, because you are lukewarm – neither hot nor cold – I am about to spit you out of my mouth” (Rev 3:16). Had to get that off my chest.
It is very unfortunate when a person seems to have been judged differently than another, or when the innocent are judged instead of the guilty. But that is the corruption of sin, and why as Bill said “God will ultimately deal perfect justice”.
Another verse to think about “For we know Him who said ‘ It is mine to avenge; I will repay, ‘ and again, ‘The Lord will judge His people’. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Hebrews 10:30-31).
Interesting.
Eh, I can kinda see Blanca’s point. As a cop, you have a measure of power over others – your word is likely to be held in higher regard than Joe Citizen because you are ideally an agent of goodness, order and whathaveyou. People are more likely to trust that you are there to protect rather than harm them. Perhaps that position ought to come with higher standards as extra incentive to not take advantage of your position.
Despite the fact that she quoted scripture several times in her comment arguing that this topic doesn’t have much to do w/ God, I may have to crown Mary queen of the thread for that one…
But now to address Blanca’s comment directly…
We all live under the same (supposedly) impartial law. Just as it would be wrong to judge an officer less I think it would be wrong to judge them to a harsher degree. I don’t think those in authority should be praised any more for upholding the law, and I don’t think they should be punished more for breaking it. And of course I certainly don’t think they should receive a lighter sentence…
I really don’t think this is a case of ignorance. Yes, those in authority who know the law so thoroughly would have little chance to claim ignorance, but I would say that for the most part we’re not talking about situations where the accused claims they didn’t know what they were doing was wrong. And besides, lawyers know the ins and outs of the law to an even greater degree than many officials, and yet I don’t hear anybody referring to them as a pillar of society here or saying that they should receive a harsher sentence.
And regarding this claim that baby murderers get off easier than those who kill adults, I’ll just need to see some proof. And by proof I don’t just mean examples where that has been the situation when comparing select cases of infanticide and select cases of adult homicides, I mean actual trending. You can grab isolated cases to prove about anything… No, I haven’t looked into this myself, but I’m not in the practice of blindly trusting claims just b/c it’s been “studied” (even by trusted friends) when the claim is in stark contrast of reason.
I do recognize those differences, but I think that it’s more applicable than you allow. What we try to do as a country won’t stop criminals from being criminals. It may hurt them, it may keep them out of contact with us (for a time) or it may exact vengeance against them. But it’s a poor solution to the real problem, sin.
Perhaps I wasn’t descriptive enough to make the point. Here’s a summary of my above post
We can’t do justice properly (pgphs 1 & 2)
We have an example of perfect justice, and it is much more severe than anything we would consider “fair” or “right” in our flawed understanding. But it is consistent (pgpgs 3-6)
We can show mercy and pursue sanctification, in the religious sense “to make holy” by preaching the Gospel to criminals and the imprisoned. (pgph 7)
Other than that, I can’t really divide my mind to meet the discussion requirements. I can’t really abstract my faith from my feelings on criminal justice. I’m convinced that what we try as a government is not going to work, so as long as the death penalty is out and Christian ministers can help and preach to inmates, I’m OK with most anything the government decides to do. Faith is the answer to preventing our worst crimes, not a policy, program or punishment.
It’s pretty easy for me to separate the two. I, as of yet, have not been given any kind of Divine Judgment authority, (Which is probably wise given my tumultuous past year..) Whether you’re an average Joe, a convicted murderer or even someone who got away with it… all forms of Judgment and Justice are between that individual and God. I consider “crime and punishment” as something completely separate in civil society. If someone has hurt me or someone I love, or if they’ve hurt someone else but may pose a threat to me or someone I love.. get them out of the system. (I guess I”m talking more murder/ assault than shoplifting candybars.) They can be sorry, they can be repentant, they can square things out with God. That’s fine. Great, in fact. They have still lost their turn. OR if they are released for “good behavior” or if they have been “sufficiently rehabilitated” then the person vouching for them should be thrown in prison with them if they act again. Maybe then the process would be taken more seriously.
Although, locking people up doesn’t have to be the only punishment- I am also ALL FOR punishment by humiliation if it accomplishes the goal of deterring crime. Legal theorists refer to it technically as “shaming.” Shaming is one of the four primary theories of punishment (other three being retribution, deterrence and rehabilitation)- shaming has been around forever; whether it involved locking people in the stocks or sewing on scarlet letters, the reality is the deterrent effect of shame for certain people with certain crimes can be as strong as the possibility of incarceration. In a civil society, the role of the state is to maintain order and enforce societal norms to protect its members. Eternal Justice is Gods business, but in the meantime the government has to keep its streets clean and its population safe. And, in some cases, ‘doing time’ does more to HELP street cred when getting caught with your glock cocked than having to wear a billboard with giant font reading “don’t trust me I rob” or “My name is Steve and I am a shoplifter” as some judges have actually required. (There is a Judge in Cincinnati who is known for his creativity also including signs “I cheat on my taxes” or “I steal gasoline” which I totally dig.)
AND I agree people should be punished equally… both based on who has committed the crime and upon whom the crime has been committed. My brother the lawyer knows it isn’t nice to kill people just as well as his friend who is a musician- and if someone decided to push me down an elevator shaft I really could care less if it were a janitor, a lawyer, a preschool teacher or one of those guys that you can hire to pick up the doggy doo doo in your yard… I”d still be dead or at least squashed and angry.
I’m away from the website for a few days and things get fun…. There is too much to delve into as many tangents have evolved so I will comment on the original post w a few outlier thoughts.
I am all for the death penalty, so long as the judicial process has been fairly played out. No public justice via lynching, witch hunts, or stonings….
Not a big fan of the pizza box idea for deadbeats — there are other ways to accomplish this goal, and such an “advertising” vehicle could be better used.
Also not a big fan of the pink plates. What real purpose does it serve? Who does it help? So we shame them & make them “feel bad” – “that’l fix ‘em”. I am for notification of residence and zoning/restrictions on residences for child molesters, however, as that serves a different purpose. I’m for clinical mental health intervention, and much stiffer incarceration, esp for repeat offenders, with life terms being an option on the table with some — serial rapists and pedophiles. If they can’t be maintained safely is society, they should be locked up. Years ago, I would’ve said death for such serious offenders, but I can’t now, although my heart tugs at the notion. That isn’t “an eye for an eye”. And prison can be much worse than death for these, having worked in one. These individuals are at THE bottom of the hierarchy there, lower than snitches, even.
Castration is not an option, nor is it an effective deterrent, for the VAST majority of sex crimes have very little to do with sex to the perpetrator. If you follow this line of thinking and punishment, you have to cut hands off thieves, etc.
I’m intrigued in reading the posts that God has been such a focal point. Yes, He is THE true, just Judge, and I understand and agree with most of what most of you have written, but virtually all cultures throughout history have had written/unwritten laws of their society, with punishments/consequences, and many of them do not believe or follow the teachings of the Judeo-Christian God most of us follow. Granted, many of their rules/consequences & the process of arriving to them are quite flawed, but we can, and are here, say the same about our present day judicial system, which was originally founded, but rarely currently follows, Judeo-Christian themes. & Faith isnt the answer, as idealistic as that is, to preventing crimes. God is, but until His return to Earth, policies, procedures, and punishments are needed. & for those who commit serious crimes but then “find God” and seek forgiveness — wonderful. But that “Get out of Jail free card” only applies to the afterlife & their soul. They squandered their life and opportunity, committed their crime while in sin, and are responsible for the consequences, whatever they may be.
Different punishments for different criminals for their crimes on different victims. It has always been this way. Media is powerful, esp in these times, and more money buys better attorneys. Better attorneys know how to use the media/have connections to serve their agenda and goals. It goes both ways, sometimes favoring the rich victim, sometimes the rich criminal (OJ, et al). Is it right? I don’t know really. People AREN’T punished equally, nor will they ever be. Is that unfair? I grew up in a home where we had rules, and we boys knew them. Were we punished equally for the same offense? Rarely, and we griped about it. Were my parents poor in their administration of justice? No, not really. The thing is, if it doesn’t consistently occur in a simple situation like our home, with good parents as “judges”, how naive to think it would ever be consistently “fair” in such a complex (ever growing) arena as court.
On a similar note, those in authority or public trust should be punished more harshly when they commit crimes while in that capacity. “To whom much is given, much is required.” When you take advantage of your position, you not only commit the actual crime, you also commit another to society as a whole, which is the actual “victim”. Such responsibility comes with the job, and that is known going in.
I think that begins to address most of what you wrote, Bill, for what its worth.
Justice, hard at work.
WOW! That’s just embarassing. How exactly does someone get by with that.
Next story that will come out will be poor Paris being confinded to her mansion…all she can do is sit by her pool and sun bathe.
That’s just ridiculous
Bill – it seems you are jaded on our criminal justice system. I think we have the greatest system of criminal justice in the history of the civilized world. It’s not perfect, to be sure. Tremendous inequities exist on the basis of class, race and religion. There are two hallmarks to any just criminal justice system: 1) the system must be open and transparent to the public, and freely available to the press, and free to be scrutinized by the public, and 2) the right to trial by jury must be in place.
The judges who dole out punishment to those convicted of crimes are held accountable by the electorate (or in the Federal system by Congress who has impeachment powers over them). Those who write the laws are also held accountable by the electorate. There may never be a truly fair and just mechanism for doling out correct punishments when we are dealing with man made law, but our system is as near to perfect as has been discovered.
Of course I don’t agree with every penalty that is handed down by a judge – spending 20 to 30 years in prison for a financial crime (a la Jeffrey Skillings) seems to be a bit absurd – order restitution and a significant fine, take his assets, and send him on their way; but oh well, that punishment for that paticular crime was in place when he committed it, so that’s what he gets – I won’t lose any sleep over it.
I agree with Chris’ statement regarding harsher punishments for those in the public trust. He summed it up quite nicely.
As for the death penalty, I’m catagorically opposed. It seems to me that vengance or retribution on a social level is a very poor excuse for the taking of a human life. Studies have also shown that capital punishment is also not an effective deterrent for future crimes; incarceration is a better means at punishing the criminal, while at the same time protecting the dignity of human life.
As for the pizza box wanted posters – these are guys who owe in the range of $50,000 to $100,000 to their families, and who have had all other remedies exhausted. They have warrants for thier arrest, but are unlocatable. It’s a combination publicity stunt and desperate attempt to track down these guys. I guess I don’t have a problem with it. If you’ve made it to pizza box status, you really have had little to no involvment in the life of the child that isn’t recieving the support, so the effects on them would proabably be minimal.
Sweeet!
http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=264863>1=7703
Kyle (or anyone here), maybe you have knowledge to shed some light on an aspect of this case that I find curious, & has actually roused some interest in me — if a judge orders someone to jail, is a sheriff allowed to release them if he deems so, superseding the judge’s order? I’ve worked in a jail setting, and I never got that impression.
Umm, I don’t think I would say I’m jaded. (Well, in general, yes, but not about this necessarily.) I agree with what you’re saying, Kyle. I made no comparisons between our judicial system in this country today and those elsewhere and of the past. But one thing that never changes is that power, money, and other influences can and do bend the law. This has nothing to do w/ our system, really, it’s just the way it is. Solomon may have been the wisest judge ever, but surely there was still corruption below him, and injustices to some degree as a result.
Heh. It is for that particular criminal…
Stink, I know you specifically made mention of personal responsibility, but it’s this kind of mentality that *removes* personal responsibility. Everyone is a victim, and if the devil didn’t make me do it, my parents did over a long period of time as they raised me. I am sick to death of hearing about how someone’s childhood turned them into the person they are so they shouldn’t be held (fully) responsible for their actions.
If there’s a car sitting in a school parking lot with a pink plate it would stand out, no?
Curious to know what changed your mind. I’d think one’s opinion would move toward the other end of the spectrum over the years after reading about more and more of these kinds of crimes.
I know a lot of counties have overcrowded jails. In Clark County, where I used to work, my child support offenders would get 30 to 60 day jail sentences, but it was rare that they would spend more than 15 days in jail. If an overcrowding situation exists, the county judges have a standing order to the Sheriff of the county to release inmates if it is necessary to ease the situation. The Sheriff would then use his best judgment as to which inmates to release early. They couldn’t release an inmate if the order specificially stated to not release him/her early, which was apparently part of Paris Hilton’s order.
Here’s an article about the Sheriff who let Paris out early – looks like they have a huge problem in L.A., as you would imagine.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jail14may14,0,1011718.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Thanks for the info Kyle, and that was a great article! What is happening there is very disturbing. Quickly, 2 points that jumped out at me — first time offenders and career criminals are treated the same, with a career criminal’s history of violent charges not taken into account, & in contrast, prostitutes are made to serve their full time. Both stats are incredible. Can’t wait for you to chime in, Bill, & I’ll reply to your comment later when I have more time.
Yeah, agreed. That was a great article, Kyle.
This kind of thing just baffles me. I had no idea it could even be done. And the fact that they aren’t even looking at the criminal’s past record (b/c that’s “too time-consuming”) is almost unbelievable. Let’s just hang a key outside the cell and Otis can let himself out whenever he wants.
I hear what you’re saying but I think this thought is a bit naive. You actually believe those with such plates would drive to/park at an elem school? & before you hop all over that to support your point — you actually believe something like that is going to deter pedophiles from being near schools, etc? They will creatively circumvent this political-sponsored speedbump. School staff and parents should be on the lookout for for any man sitting in/near the parking lot of an elem school, regardless of the appearance of the vehicle. THAT, and educating children, is the best deterrent.
My views have evolved for various reasons, but don’t get me wrong with what I will say, I still have moments of thoughts/feelings similar to yours, but, unlike you, they are not my predominant belief any longer. I, too, believe that sex crimes are horrible which are not punished harshly enough in many cases. I also believe that children have not been protected as they should be, legally, in comparison to adult victims of sex crimes, but the recent addition of Jessica’s Law is a good improvement. I have worked clinically with many offenders over the years. True pedophiles are mentally ill — “sick” is the word that really fits here — and they are never truly cured, but are maintained. They pose a literal threat to the children of their society. If they cannot be maintained safely, they should be incarcerated, for life if need be. Could you sentence them to death if you were the judge? Could you pull the lever? I bet you could if the victims were your children/loved ones, but that isn’t the case with the judge presiding. That is done purposely so emotion doesn’t come into play (this all under the hypothetical notion that the sentence of death was an option), in any case, not just sex crimes. I couldn’t pass such a sentence. To quote your “eye for an eye” — this situation and such a punishment isn’t Hammurabi’s Code, even if I did believe as you do, so how do you justify it? Rapists existed 4000 years ago. Something else for you to chew on: When is a death sentence warranted, in your eyes (in the case of sex crimes/aside from murder)? Just true pedophiles or serial rapists, who have multiple/scads of victims? Do you realize how small a percentage they are in the total of all perpetrators? For your argument sake, let’s say those with 3 or more victims are executed. But now you’ve opened Pandora’s box. What are you saying to society and the victims of crimes that such criteria can’t be proven? Aren’t you minimizing what has been done to them by not punishing their assailant with death, as well? Ok, so let’s alter it further and say that ALL offenders are killed. Do you have any idea how many people this would consist of? One out of 3 females and 1 out of 6 males will be sexually assaulted in this country. And remember, serial rapists/pedophiles are only a small portion of the overall number of offenders (but they draw the vast majority of media attention), and are statistical outliers that skew the stats, leaving a huge # of perpetrators left over. Kill them all? Another fact: 30% of all sex offenders are under the age of 18, and they commit 50% of all sexual molestations. Kill them? Lock them away till adulthood, then kill them? What do you do with the different types of sex crimes? Just execute the rapists and jail the molesters? What do you do with the mentally retarded man with the intellect and boundaries of a 3 year old but the body and urges of a 20 year old? He wouldn’t be executed if he was convicted of murder. This is alot here but just small part of the mess of inconsistency that has been created if your belief of justified punishment would be made law (which will NEVER happen in this society). And before you call me an apologist (which I’m actually not, aside from what you now think) and attempt to carve me up, what are the origins of your stance and how would you hand done punishments, specifically, if you were a judge?
WHOA, whoa, Chris, hang on. When did I say I thought we should kill sex offenders? I appreciate the effort you put into your reply, but I think you read wrong somewhere. I never said that, and I don’t believe that. I do think in most cases the punishment needs to be much greater for these crimes, and that true pedophiles (in particular) need to be contained to whatever degree necessary, but I didn’t say anything about sentencing them to death. I do understand what you said earlier about castration not being effective, and I was only partly serious in saying that anyway. But no mention of capital punishment for these folks.
Maybe a special place in hell though…
Well, heck, I just wasted 20 min of my life…. Thought for sure you felt that way; MANY people do.
I could. Touch my child and I’ll take him out. Death for this crime would definitely would be a deterrent as would castration. Even if they are ’sick,’ little ones are suffering and we who are well must protect them. With death as a deterrent, could be his brain would kick in and he would zip up his pants.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke
Mary, you are so right on.
Just since the topic came up:
States Weigh Punishing Child Rapists With Death
And:
Sex Offenders to Be Offered ‘Chemical Castrations’
Bah.
Bah, “They should be forced to have treatment.” or Bah, “This will never work”?
Bah that headline’s all wrong. This isn’t chemical castration. “Hey, if you want, here are some happy pills that might help you keep your pants on at the playground. That okay with you?”
I say castrate them all. At least the number of repeat offenders will go down.
Castration is all fine and dandy for the guys but there are women sex offenders out there too. And more than you think. However ,it isn’t even remotely being able to be tracked the way it should. Think about it…if you are a 16 year old guy and have the chance to “hook up” with a good looking 24 year old. Are you going to think about whether she is taking advantage of you? NO! You are thinking about how you are going to brag to your buddies. Even when a guy is raped by a woman how likely are they to turn that in at the risk of their buddies poking fun.
I visited a jail once during school and one of the wardens told us that Sex Offenders make the best inmates. Especially child molestors. I didn’t get it at first but it makes sense. You aren’t going to be tempted to rape a child in jail because there isn’t that temptation.
One last absolutely sickening statistic taken from the following website: http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp
Most perpetrators don’t molest only one child if they are not reported and stopped.
Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims.
An average serial child molester may have as many as 400 victims in his lifetime.
If there were any doubt that our freedoms were meant to walk hand-in-hand with Christian morals, and that without guidance from those morals our “freedoms” would instead be chains, then read this.
If anyone would do me the favor to disband the ACLU, I’d be very appreciative.
Was at a conference last week and informed that this will never happen. The supporters/fighters of breast cancer have dibs on the color pink & won’t allow this to happen — they don’t want associated in any way w sex offenders.
I couldn’t decide if this should go here or under Go Away. Bill you can move it if you want. We can just hope that this investigation isn’t “mishandled” also.
http://www.wbns10tv.com/?sec=&story=sites/10tv/content/pool/200709/102558165.html
http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080117/NEWS01/801170326
more ex-students of mine making me proud
Speaking of MHS students, I subbed today and had this one girl in my class who signed the attendance sheet Mindy MF Morgan. I remembered her from a while back as a complete terror; I didn’t remember her middle names were Mildred and Francine. So I asked Kevin kind of tongue-in-cheek, “Is Mindy Morgan a fifth-year senior?” And he said, “Yes.” She actually didn’t cause a whole lot of trouble today, since it was a fairly typical do-nothing-because-the-sub-is-there day…she just distracted about six other dudes who crammed into her table mesmerized by her fascinating cell-phone-feature tales (It takes pictures!).
So, my discussion question is as follows:
How do you feel about the government’s resonsibility to educate kids who red-shirt, or any other kids for whom school seems to be a complete nightmare…and also for their teachers and the other students who are actually trying to learn something.
Don’t they have camps or something for those kids?
Scott, a little clarification. By government do you mean school system/teachers/administration? Are you suggesting that such cases exist b/c the educational system is failing the student?
You gotta give a 5th yr senior credit for still showing up when legally they don’t have to anymore.
I realize that this comment is on the heels of Kevin’s comment regarding some of his prize pupils, but it’s humorous to see this question in this thread out of that context. It’s almost like the assumption is that such kids will automatically become criminals.
Two thoughts:
1. The government should not be involved in educating our kids.
2. But we live w/gov’t education, and in this case, I’m glad to see that she’s still showing up. It’s very hard for adults to come back to my wife’s GED classes, and she’s really saddened to see people who test very well but dropped out because of non-educational reasons (teachers, administrators, parents, social pressures). Even in goof-off mode, I’d rather see kids get through and get their diploma than drop out and get lost in just trying to survive in the system without an education.
There is a really great difference between the options for kids with a high school diploma / GED and those that don’t have one. Just having a diploma won’t make you a model citizen, but if they have the drive (whatever it is) to keep showing up, I say do whatever you can to encourage that and help them get through.
Aside: I took a really great class a few weekends ago called Bridges out of Poverty. It was very helpful for me to see the fudamental differences in worldview between the lower and middle class. One pertinent, eye-opening concept was that the lower class / poorly educated tend to see the world as immediate-term, as opposed to the middle class planning for the future and making decisions based on those plans. For the poor, life is really lived day-to-day, and it’s hard to see what next month or next year will be, or how what I do know could possibly impact that. Helping people to attain things like a GED / diploma can be one bridge for opening opportunities that break the cycle of poverty from generation to generation, because it opens doors to making future plans, not just keeping this job this week.
This is the embodiment of my lack of hope for humanity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COOKf3V5U6M
So – there are a couple of people here in the psychology/counseling field, yeah? Is this what you would consider sociopathic behaviour? I mean sure, they’re not serial killers, but they definitely strike me as the type that would stab a girl for her shoes and then be pissed that she bled all over them.
I’m craving Law & Order all of a sudden . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2Y3W5T4zM
so which is worse, those who act in such fashion, or those that defend them & their behavior?
I’d say the teenagers are worse…the other is just doing their job.
Am I the only one more surprised that these two teenage girls racked up a $26 tab at Denny’s?
Yeah, I’m gonna have to agree with Darren on this. No matter what someone has done, there must always be someone to present their side of the story. Assuming we’re talking about lawyers and court proceedings. I don’t know what the video showed – Chris, your link was full of fail.
As far as someone actually defending their actions? I don’t even know how one would. It’s not like they could argue need – they’re clearly spoiled little beeyotches.
The best I can come up with is that – through upbringing or genetic – they are just missing whatever it is that makes us empathize with others and not hurt them. Sure they know the law – but the one girl had a point – they knew it was a crime, but it was an “easy crime”. As long as it’s not something that makes them feel personally guilty (or at least not too guilty), people tend to do whatever they can get away with.
Oh sweet, Season 2 of 30 Rock just finished downloading.
*genetics
Stink, are you serious about genetics or are you just throwing words around? That’s a pretty strong statement if you’re being literal.
Not really genetics I guess – but something in a person’s physical makeup that just went wrong somewhere. It’s mostly a nod to the fact that I have no idea what makes a person develop the way they do. I think in this particular case, the parents of both of these girls probably just brought them up to be self-entitled asshats. That two people with the same biological/genetic/whatever problems would randomly encounter each other, become friends and end up on the news seems to be the less likely scenario.
But just a quick google on the subject brings up articles that suggest yes, sociopathic behaviours may in fact be genetic. Or at least the tendencies are genetic. Studies regarding higher probabilities of the disorder among relatives, brain scans of a normal person’s reaction to certain stimulus as opposed to someone with antisocial personality disorder, etc.
I’m no doctor obviously – any info I have is based on published research someone else has done. But I know enough to know that sometimes people are just put together wrong from the get go, so the idea of a genetic cause for people with behaviour similar to this at least bears consideration.
Fifteen to twenty years ago, I was a big advocate/believer in biology over environment. But over time, my experiences in the psych field has caused me to drastically change my way of thinking, esp as it pertains to personality disorders.
Such findings do not necessarily strengthen the genetic argument . It can just as strongly support the point of the vast impact of environment. It all depends on how you look at/frame it. And if you support something strong enough, you can find any study that somehow supports your claims, so I am VERY careful to get too excited in the results of research studies, as they often support the the researcher’s special interest…. but I tangent w my professional biases.
I’m a huge believer in the “modeling” of behavior, esp adults to children. THAT recycling of LEARNED behavior is what I see explaining similar behaviors “among relatives”, not necessarily anything genetic, per se. Additionally, any scans, bio test results, etc don’t necessarily prove a “genetic” hypothesis. I believe the human body adapts and adjusts, even “evolves” – Darwin wasn’t entirely wrong, IMO – to environmental stimuli; physical change DUE TO environmental influences is NOT “genetic” in basis.
That all being said, I DO believe that particular mood disorders DO have strong genetic components – schizophrenia, true BiPolar disorder (versus the “flavor of the month” diagnosis its become in the medical community. In reality, it only affects less than 3% of the total population), and certain depression and anxiety disorders.
Some of you may disagree, but I like the eye-for-an-eye idea
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.acid.justice/index.html
“Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only countries that consider eye-gouging to be a legitimate judicial punishment.”
Find or report crimes in your neighborhood.
this is how cincinnati is getting rid of crime
shadow hare
an awkward speech from shadow hare the 59 second mark is pretty funny the rest is just weird
there’s planty more on youtube about this guy, and he is occasionally interviewed by Tracy Jones on 700 wlw
“Man, this ain’t Easter!”
I couldn’t even finish that speech video, Kevin. Made me too uncomfortable.
did you at least hear the guy at the minute mark say in a high voice “hi everybody i’m shadow hare”
I actually thought it was pretty funny
Maybe it’s my ignorance and cynicisim but I don’t believe that anyone “forced” him to do drugs. I’m not buying his tragic story.
State trooper charged with 147-mph speeding ticket changes plea to not guilty after learning the judge intends to suspend his license
i don’t know if this is the right thread, but this here kind of bugs me…
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090721/NEWS01/907220324
Now i agree applebees and weight watchers were wrong for “false claims” but i don’t think that lawyers and this woman deserve millions for it. She got tricked into eating fatty tilapia, and she believed everything applebees said is true. shame on her. Just stop eating at applebees, and tell your friends not to eat there and so on. Also how did she know that the dish she had had more calories than it said? And if she knew it why did she still eat it?
I must add, i read a bunch of the comments and my favorite was “You should eat a salad fatty. and not a taco salad.”
How many orders of tilapia did the lady eat? And did she never ever break her diet and run through the DQ drive through? If she’s fat, it’s probably not because of fish.
would you like to explain where you were last night at 935 pm?
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/08/05/Perry_Cty_Deaths_10TV_redir.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101
a 7.6 mile distance
I assume you’re talking to me, but no thanks, I wouldn’t.
seriously? I wonder which one of my ex students did this.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/02/24/police-seek-millersport-bank-robber.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101
I’m gonna go ahead and say that anytime someone claims to have a bomb that they might use to blow up the Millersport bank they’re lying. No exceptions. This is the equivalent of blowing the safe in the Hazzard County Bank with a stick of dynamite.
I’ll also add that when I read “Employees complied and gave the robber money from their drawers” I initially interpreted “drawers” as “trousers.”
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/07/02/ex-girls-basketball-coach-indicted-for-text-message.html
Does anyone find this punishment excessive?
there may be a little more to the story that they aren;t mentioning. “David Kessler, an investigator with the Fairfield County prosecutor’s office, declined to describe the nature of the relationship between Zollinger and the student for which the message was intended or provide other details of the case.”
that leaves me to think there is more to it.
also they only mentioned the maximum penalties., not the actual penalties.
but yeah if all he did was send a text this is waay steep.